Contest: Complete the Sentence
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture ..."
therefore ... ?
but ... ?
(I'm thinking of the old church tradition / scripture debates)
The author of the best response gets to beat the living crap out of Aaron Ghiloni for me, for this piece of unprovoked malevolence. The runner up gets to help out the winner. The losers get to cheer from the ringside when things get messy.
posted by Chris Tilling @ 4:10 PM
19 comments
19 Comments:
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, but the kerygma (as the foundation of the Church) is prior to the Church, and it is the kerygma that lends Scripture its authority."
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture therefore those who say they believe who say they base their faith on the Bible and not on church tradition are somewhat misinformed, but getting them to see that point is probably more effort than it is worth.
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, therefore canonicity appears to depend on the authority of the Church and not the other way around. But, this does not undermine the contemporary authority or meaning of the scriptures because the Church did canonize them and even before that considered them authoritative.
Therefore, the church decided what would be in the canon of scripture, but canonicity doesn't affect the truthfulness or otherwise of the historical event.
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture...
...but what does artillery have to do with anything?
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, but the Church is the Body of Christ and therefore it is Jesus to whom Scripture and Church both witness who stands preeminent as judge and interpreter of Scripture.
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture...
...So Tilling would have us believe, but let us suppose that Tilling is correct, all we could conclude...
therefore...
...is that the Church is older than the Christian canons of Scripture...
but...
...all the people involved in the process of canonization are worm food yet the canon lives on, and since necromancy is illegal according to the Jewish canon of Scripture we don't do it because we recognize some sort of continuity between the Jewish canon and the Christian canon (because most of the early Christians were Jews anyway), so in the end we give preeminence to the canon over dead guys, no matter how cool they were...
:^P
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, but "that would be an ecumenical matter"
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture ..."
therefore ... Man. Utd. will win the Premiership this season
but ... Liverpool will be relegated.
Makes perfect sense to me.
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture...
but
that sounds vaguely Romanist, so my common sense is overridden by my strong anti-Catholic prejudices and THEY PRAY TO MARY AND PRIESTS HAVE SEX WITH KIDS OMG!!1!11!"
therefore we should all be Catholic.
(What do I get if I win?)
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, but God is ontologically prior to everything, therefore we should attribute qualities proper to God neither to the Church nor to the Scriptures (the latter having been given for the sake of man and not man for the sake of the scriptures, despite what some rabbis in the Talmud would have us believe... {g}) Unless the Church and/or Scriptures are supposed to be God Incarnate, perhaps.
(The artillery reply was much funnier, though. I vote for that one and for Nick's, though Josh's is pretty good too! {g})
JRP
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture...
Which Church and who's canon?
For example; the canon I adhere to predates the Protestant Church by a thousand years.
Therefore ... in some cases, the canons came before the Church that changed the canons.
but... you'll, no doubt, protest.
;-)
john
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture therefore the canon speaks more directly about the beliefs of the church, but this does not necessarily invalidate the canon as a viable witness to truth if the Church was a faithful steward of the truth.
The Church is chronologically prior to Christian canons of scripture and therefore Protestants have to come up with a "but" and long, convoluted statements with which to follow it.*
*See above comments.
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture, but a much stronger statement can be made: Jesus himself spoke about the church to his listeners (at Mt 18:17)!
The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian Canons of scripture THEREFORE it must have been the Oral Gospel that lead them to "choose" (by the hand of God) which books taught the Gospel, BUT if we study what people believed at the time the Canon was 'recognised' we see that they were totally Roman Catholic. 381 Rome, 393 Hippo, 397 Carthage
"The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture because the Incarnate Word chose a coward, a fanatic, an unlicensed doctor, a mystic, and there had to be an Irishman in the mix somewhere, therefore He said conveyed everything with nothing, but His taste in brides is questionable.
The statement: The Church is chronologically prior to the Christian canons of scripture is an empty, irrational statement that reflects the profound division, confusion and error that exists in Christianity today.
Doctrine and denomination aside, it is a matter of documented, verifiable, historical fact that the Catholic/Orthodox and her episcopate is the Church that Christ started through the Apostles; just as it is a historical fact the Church produced the Bible…the Bible did not produce the Church. These basic facts and events of history are obvious and undeniable to anyone who opens an art history or music appreciation book, or simply looks in a secular encyclopedia in any research university library. Unfortunately, there are many people of all creeds that simply refuse to acknowledge facts, reality and truth. Anyone who is truly and honestly seeking and participating in life, beauty and Truth must always guard themselves against becoming one of the millions of close-minded idiots whose thoughts and actions are so entrenched in faulty, irrational philosophies, theologies and ideologies that they lack any desire to rise above complacent, ignorant bigotry when faced with any kind of challenge, whether great or small, to their belief system that would demand them to exercise even the slightest degree of intellectual rigor.
It is pointless for Catholic/Orthodox and Protestants to bicker about who is right and who is wrong. It is a sad fact that too many Catholics in North America are lukewarm in their faith and morals and disgracefully ignorant of the true doctrine and history of their Church. It is no wonder that what Protestants see in American Catholics is empty, exterior observances and rituals. It is also a sad fact that there are too many Protestants who slander things they know nothing of, or blindly accept the lies that someone told them, because they, in turn, believed the lies that someone told to them. Every single word and gesture of the Catholic Liturgy is firmly rooted in Sacred Scripture, including papal authority, Episcopal apostolic succession and legitimacy, the throne of the queen mother, the Assumption of Mary, sacramental priesthood, purgatory, etc, etc….Although, most Protestant sects refuse to hear the evidence. I am speculating that this intolerant refusal to consider rational, reasonable, verifiably accurate facts and arguments is a rampant pathology that is born out of our species irrational and primal need to establish personal and familial security and identity by banding together into highly exclusive groups of warring clans, tribes, nations, etc. It is all too clear that for many, many people the fundamental psychological need for an individual to belong a group, to fit in and to be accepted by their community and to be loved by their kinsfolk is all that is required to stir one’s soul into a self-righteous and self-justified patriotic and nationalistic fury of divisive, hateful wrath.
Unprincipled baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders we can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And say, “God Bless him!” BobDylan
The power of this pathology is not to be underestimated. It is a part of everyone to some degree, as we all share the same fallen nature. This hideous reality of human nature is undeniable and it is truly stocking how quickly and powerfully the most virtuous soul’s, otherwise, peaceful, loving and generous disposition and principled morals can be completely and utterly abandoned to a spirit and threat of vindictive, murderous ostracism and retaliation. These harsh statements have applied to both Catholics and Protestant men and women through the centuries—one is no better than the other.
Catholics who look upon their Protestant brothers and sisters with condescension and notions of ecclesial, doctrinal and traditional superiority immediately put themselves in opposition to the true teaching of the Church, which is humility and meekness. It is impossible to look upon others in judgment and at the same time be truly humble. Where there is true humility there is true repentance and contrition, and where there is true contrition and repentance there is no judgment.
Protestants who look upon their Catholic/Orthodox brothers and sisters with contempt for engaging in “extra-biblical” or “non-biblical” practices and beliefs are totally blind to what the true teachings of the Catholic/Orthodox Church actually are. It only makes sense that if I am going to reject, hate and comment on something then I should at least know exactly what that something is, so that I can reject, hate and comment accurately and for good reason. For example, there are many people who would be content to spread the misconception that Catholic priests cannot be married and have families when, in fact, there are many, many Catholic priests that are married and do have families. Now, I am certain that there are many ignorant people (Catholics included) that would say, “Not ah!!! No they can’t!” and continue on spreading the lie that Catholic priests cannot be married and have families. The great tragedy here is that most people absolutely refuse to actually go to the Catholic Church to find out what the actually teaching and tradition is. Another fallacy that Protestants accuse Catholics of is worshipping Mary. The Hail Mary is taken directly, word for word, from the Gospel according to Saint Luke, with a petition at the end asking Mary to “pray for us.” Since the Rosary is simply a compendium of meditations on the mysteries of the four Gospels (annunciation, visitation presentation at the temple, nativity, finding in the temple, baptism of Jesus, wedding at Cana, proclamation of the kingdom of Heaven, transfiguration, last supper, agony in the garden, scourging at the pillar, etc, etc.) it is a arrogant, misinformed, malicious lie to accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, when they are in fact worshipping the holy Trinity and simply venerating Christ’s mother by echoing the prophecy of Sacred Scripture down through the centuries, “…all generations will call me blessed.”
The Catholic/Orthodox Mass (Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist) is simply the extension of the Jewish practices and rituals that go back thousands of years, all the way back to Moses: sacramental priesthood, ritual cleansing, the consecrated alter for blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, the tabernacle/Arch of the Covenant, scriptural readings, praying and singing of the psalms, etc…. Christ said that he did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law. So, when Protestants reject the Catholic Mass, they are also rejecting the practices, teachings and rituals of all of the Prophets, priests, and saints of the Old Testament. Since it is a verifiable, historical fact that Christ started his Church through his Apostles, and it was the Apostles who established and clarified the true doctrine of Christ (Acts, Epistles, Revelation) against a bunch of false doctrines popping up, and since it was the Apostles who passed on (Tradition) the Mass as the first authentic form of Christian worship and ritual, and since it was the Apostles and their approved successors who produced the New Testament (Sacred Scripture) and protected and preserved it through centuries of murderous, torturous persecution it would be utterly ridiculous and irrational to suggest that the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ started. Since the Bible was canonized by an assembly of all of the approved successors of the Apostles (the Catholic Episcopate/Magisterium) it is clear that the “Christian Bible” is the product of Catholic/Orthodox Church’s Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Magisterium. Anyone who denies this just simply does not have a clue about some of the most basic events of history.
Does it make any sense that Christ would start his Church and that that Church would produce the Bible and preserve it, along with the apostolic doctrine of Jesus Christ, unchanged for two thousand years and that that would not be the Church that the “gates of hell will not prevail against?” Does it make any sense that, fifteen-hundred years after the birth of Christ, one man, a German Catholic priest, would formulate a new and differing doctrine based on the anti-scriptural premise of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fida, and that that new “protestant” doctrine would fracture into the thirty-thousand denominations of “Christianity” all propagating differing and contradictory teachings, and that one of these thirty thousand denominations would be the true Church of Christ?
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